Reen.Blom

Kharmine, Dear, this is really awesome, Thank you!

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nicknack

Next time anyone asks, I think I'll link to this thread.

And don't get me started on all the goddess stuff, it's like someone decided you couldn't be both a feminist and feminine, so they had to invent a myth to make themselves feel better.... I don't know what it is, but all the goddess c*** makes me want to down another pint of Guinness and throw on my greb jeans.

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Reen.Blom

LOL @ Nicknack

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Kharmine

Well, thank y'all! There's so little we do know about the origins of belly dance, and all of it from relatively modern times, that I find it can be condensed -- not that that's the whole story, and doesn't need a lot more detail. I can't say it's all correct either -- it's just what I've been able to find through as many credible sources as possible.

There are still people today who were there, who remember how belly dance came to be popular in the States. What I'd like to know is how did it spread to other countries, such as Australia?

As for Madame Badia -- she wrote her memoirs but I can't find a copy. (It will be my luck to come across a copy and find they're in French or something.) I read in a couple of places that she wasn't Muslim, but changed her name from something similar to something more acceptably Muslim-sounding.

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Amulya

Cool topic!

I read a very interesting article once in a German magazine about the origins. The writer (unfortunately I don't know her name) really did a lot of research on it, but could of course not give a complete history as that would be impossible. However her findings sounded reasonable. She said that belly dance wasn't that old, but more a dance evolved out of different elements from different cultures. She thought that shimmies might have been brought into the dance by African slaves as certain African dances also have shimmies. If you compare certain gypsy dances from India with belly dance you can also see similarities. According to her, the way belly dance is today might only be 150 years old.

Now I'm going to the 'forgive me for I have sinned' topic as I remember something I have to confess now (http://forum.orientaldancer.net/othe...html#post42094)

I could never understand the whole goddess thing, but you know, it does sell! The dancers who advertise like that really get a lot of students, it's scary!

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Zorba

I'm no historian nor a scholar...

I think "most" theories of the dance's origins have some truth to them. I don't think it came from one place or time.

"Only about 100 years old"? In its current form - absolutely. Did people dance in a similar manner 5,000 years ago - common sense would tell you that they did - but this can devolve into a semantic argument very quickly so I won't go there. But take a look at Polynesian dances - they're our "kissing cousins".

Goddess ritual? No doubt. A construct of the "evil patriarchy"? I'm sure. Came from India? Some of it did. Came from Morocco? Some of it did. Came from Egypt? Some of it did. Women's only dance? In some places and some times. Men's only dance? In some places and some times. Both women and men? In some places and some times.

We're talking about a HUGE area in space and time...

Them's me thoughts!

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Tarik Sultan

Well, as for the Goddess ritual stuff, I see no proof of it at all. All I've seen are references to stautues and comments like, what she's wearing looks like our costumes. My biggest grip with all of this goddess stuff is that there are very real religions alive and well today in Africa and Asia where there are dances that honor not only goddesses, but gods as well. None of them look like our dance. If find that this claim was created sometime around the late 60's early 70's. If the people where the dance is native see no Goddess connection, then where did Americans get this notion and where is the proof?
Its this type of fantasy at the expence of real cultural knowledge and experience that annoys me.

For certain as others have already piointed out, the theatrical version we are familiar with crystalized in the 1930's. However, the social dances that it is based on are much older. Exactly how old....we will never know and so what? There are references by 1st century Romans descirbing the Phoenicians in Cadiz doing a dance that included shaking the hips. It could have been of Egyptian origin as the Phoenicians were very havily influenced by Egyptian culture at one time, but that is only speculation on my part. I've also seen a Roman sarcophegus in raised relief, of Egyptians doing a dance in which they were holding clappers and the hips were emphasized to show they were articulated to the left and right, indicating the hips were the main focus. So there is some evidence that at least during the first century a dance involving hip movements was being done in Egypt. How much older than that it was, or when it started???????

From looking at the dance though, it can bee seen that it is a combination of several movement traditions. The articualtions of the hips and torso are very similar to many movements that can be seen all across the African continent. On the other hand, the fluid hand and arm movements can be seen in the dances of Central Asia and Persia. Once again conjecture on my part would say that perhaps these movements found their way into Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranian during the time of the Persian Empire when that entire region was under Persian domination. There are definate African and Asiatic connections, but how and when it all came about is anybodies guess.

Rick Fink

Hey everyone,

We know that drumming was invented by the cavemen so I think we can safely assume that bellydancing was invented by the cavegirls.

Rick

cathy

Rick says drumming was invented by cavemen! Are you an authentic caveman? Do you do any drumming? Know any "cave girls"?

And is your real name Rick Fink?

Thanks, Cathy