Kharmine

R, I think that's a pretty good test! Although I suspect the very much younger generation is losing its attention span quicker these days...

To give ATS its due, it's supposed to look mysterious, exotic and different from any other kind of dance and it really is all about celebrating that "tribal" aesthetic, innit? The group experience, the team hug, the communal ritual.

And if I remember correctly, it has always had a strong feminist element, the "we're-not-doing-this-to-titillate-men" thang (unlike those artificial "Cabaret" types! ). There's always been an emphasis in ATS on female empowerment through the encouragement of communal sisterhood and pride in one's earthy, womanly qualities.

And then many devotees are into goddess worship and see this as a kind of extension of their spiritual outlook, so it then it takes on an even more "ritualistic" flavor.

I hope I don't sound condescending. I've been a card-carrying feminist from way back, and as someone who grew up in a patriarchal church, feel a good deal of sympathy for women wanting to own some of that spiritual power.

But I've had to tell myself that ATS is what it is, and not what I prefer, and should be judged on its own merits.

Personally, I've decided to call what I do "American-style raqs sharqi" to distinguish it from other types of belly dance -- and the reason I like it is that I don't HAVE to perform a set choreography, unlike other dance forms I've done over the years.

But then, I've never been fond of team sports either.

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Aziyade

Rick,

That was Carolena's goal. Unison through group improvisation using a minimal movement vocabulary. The original idea for ATS Tribal was that each performance would be spontaneous and wholly improvised, like a conversation. If you knew the language of the conversation you could jump in at any time. It's a conversation; not a story. There is no rising action and falling action -- no beginning, middle, and ending; or conflict and resolution.

I would disagree that the "message" behind this kind of dance is that our culture of conformity is stifling. From reading her words, I don't think that's what she had in mind AT ALL when putting this form together. She liked the idea of improvisational modern dance, and she liked the Greek chorus concept from theatre. You can read The Tribal Bible for more info on what exactly she was hoping to accomplish, but I believe Carolena thought this dance was empowering not stifling.

Having attempted ATS with my group, I can tell you that group improvisation is extremely difficult -- like "giving a cat a bath" kind of difficult, so I respect any group who is able to pull this off with the degree of skill that Fat Chance and Gypsy Caravan do.

BUT, ATS is definately NOT my favorite form to watch. I prefer to SEE and dance to more complicated music, or at least interpret the music in a more complicated and emotionally individual way. That's just me. Some of the first experiences I had with ATS were overly-long and monotonous performances (done badly) by student groups to the SAME SIX HORRIBLE SONGS, so I'm still sort of biased against watching ATS even now.

I know there are still a lot of die-hard group improv fans (I think Sharon does group improv) but it does seem that more and more "Tribal" dancers are moving away from the strictly improvisational structure and moving towards more complicated "choreographies" using either pre-set combinations of movements or outright choreographies. To me that seems to defeat the purpose of doing "Tribal" dancing, but then I'm told I really don't understand it at all, so there you go.

Tikvah

Actually, there can be a lot of room for individuality and expressiveness, but it depends on who is leading. ATS is a style that is mostly all group improvisation. I've taken classes with Fat Chance. If it is explained as being unchoreographed, the audience has a greater chance of "getting it." The music can be monotonous, but that's part of why it is so earthy. It would be really hard to jump into a song that had a lot of changes, with a group that you may or may not have previously danced with, and try to lead the movements (the leader changes fairly frequently, hence the circle or other various arrangements that you may see in ATS).

Other tribal performers are actually tribal fusion, or a fusion between ATS (whether that is Fat Chance, Gypsy Caravan, or other more "founding" groups) and cabaret, oriental, or even other forms of dance.

Recnadocir

I think Aziyade hit it on the head about the group improv process (which I've also done a bit of, in classes with Jill Parker, former Fat Chance dancer)- fun and interesting to do, but not so interesting to watch. The closest analogy in other dance styles might be contact improvisation, a modern dance style that can be very involving to do, but seem pointless and meandering to watch.

Parenthetically, though the founder of the style is against male dancers, Jill, one of her premier former dancers, is not. So there doesn't seem to be a consistent anti-male bias in ATS.

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steffib

Well, if there is a group piece, then the goal is to have an overall expression as a group, and not have the individual dancer's personality showcases - just like in an oriental-style group piece. So, the observation is correct, but the critique strikes me similar to complaining that there is no meat in a vegetarian restaurant.

Certainly, when done badly, ATS is not all that fun to watch, just like bad oriental can be rather unenjoyable - it is an open question which discipline takes the "We can do it worse than you" title.

Personally, I love watching the interaction between the dancers especially in Fat Chance, and I very much enjoy how good ATS can work with the music. It is such great fun to be a follower when the lead dancer "gets" the music and catches accents. When I watch e.g. Fat Chance, I don't feel excluded, I have more the reaction "They have so much fun, I wanna be part of it".

Anyways, it is a misconception that all ATS uses exclusively very monotonous music - my ATS troupe dances to Turkish tunes like Shashkin ot Uskudara Gideriken, for instance. It is also a misconception that all ATS is about female empowerment or goddess worship or such - for some dancers it may well be, for many others it is not. It's not for myself, and I am pretty sure that for my male troupemate, it isn't ). It is even more of a misconception that ATS dancers don't smile - anybody who has watched the Fat Chance instructional videos will know that one can almost say that "If you don't smile, it's not ATS." It is also a misconception that all ATS does not pay attention to the audience - sure, I can't flirt with the cute guy in the audience the same way I can while dancing a solo because I need to pay attention to what the lead dancer does, or I'll miss a cue, and that ain't cool - but in my troupe, we engage the audience. Of course we do that, it's half of the fun to feel that the audience gets into it.

ETA - it is a misconception that all ATS dancers have a wrinkly-nose attitude towards cabaret. Many of us enjoy and appreciate both. Some dancers even perform ATS and oriental - different time/place, of course.

taheya

I have done a few ATS workshops, I enjoyed them more than i thought i would to be honest, however, I disagree that this style encourages individuality, to me the overall affect is conformity and unison as a group, thats the idea isnt it? I dont think it has anything to do with the leader of the group either as the others are all cueing off her anyway. Whoever said that actually doing ATS is more fun than watching hit the nail on the head!

Venefica

It looks a little boring to be hosnest, little other movement than walking around. However I am definitly no expert so never mind me. The costumes though looked kind of nice.

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belly_dancer

DAMN (can I say (write) that here??) what can I say....
so many points..... (& I tend to be disorganized anyhow...... eeeek... will try & stay on track!)
lets see... I have studied "back in the day"(sort of extensively) w/ the ORIGINAL Carolena (& Jill when she STARTED Ultra Gypsy for that matter)...
however I have NEVER been an ATS dancer (old school Cabaret BABY!!!)
1st off.... CAROLENA ROCKS.......
so leave her alone!!!!!
she started a WHOLE new movement in Bellydance... got alot of S@*! for it back then!
when it (ATS) 1st came on scene... it was SOOOO exiting (different)
the energy btwn carolena, Jill, Rita(?) & possibly Pauline???? was SOOOO together & different...
I do have to say.... once it became more "mainstream" & everyone was doing it.... it became more "codified" (like organized religion??) & less "spontaneous" & cool... & eventually lost something in the "translation"
but the basic ideas behind the original idea were way cool....
& I have to say... Carolena KICKS A*#&@ when it comes to basic technique.... which can translate to WHATEVER form of bellydance you are studying...

but unfortunately (like one of my friends pointed out... (on the way to a "tribal festival") but I refused to believe til I saw it myself...) "tribal style" seems to have become a catch all for all the people who take 6 classes & "look I'm a belly dancer" (the ones who don't want to do it if it's "too hard" or simply do not care about technique) & now, it simply seems the whole thing has gotten 'watered down" to appeal to the "mainstream"...

also, do not know what the original video was that started this thread.....

but remember.. Elvis seems sort of quaint/old fashioned/boring to us NOW> (compared to what his influence eventually "spawned")... but in his day he was INNOVATIVE/ SHOCKING/etc!!!
& where would rock & roll be without him???
(ATS without Carolena???)
thank you Carolena....

steffib

As for the comments on "just walking in circles" (take into accuont that this is less than a minute from the middle of a performance, and thus not necessarily a perfect representation of what the rest of the performance looked like - ATS can also include fast moves): Well, this clip shows the period where they switch from one lead dancer to another - and the "maneuver" to accomplish that is to walk in a circle while the next lead dancer takes the proper spot. And, this is the "slow" music part of the performance - which means the movements are slow, and the dancers will not be super-cheerful and won't have broad smiles on their face - that's what the music indicates. And, I'd bet that the dancers look at each other since they are waiting for one of them to break eye contact and take the new lead spot.

And, I disagree with Tikvah who says that it would be difficult to dance with a group one does not know, especially when one has music with lots of changes. First, most music has a fairly predictable structure even when there are changes - and more importantly, that's the beauty of ATS - I may not do a great job, but if they tone it down a notch for somebody who doesn't know their dancers' body language (and b/c I suck at the more challenging things like spins), I could dance with Fat Chance because I study their format. And, I could jump in and lead for Fat Chance, with a song that I know, but they don't - they would get what I do.

Recnadocir

Well I only met the leader of Fat Chance once...have to say she was rather unfriendly, apparently because I'm a male. But, as I've said in another thread, my next stop was Suhaila's school, where I was welcomed with open arms.

That being said, when I compare the energy of "Fat Chance" with Suhaila's energy, there is simply no comparison. Suhaila rocks!

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