Shanazel

I agree with Maria about teaching children to belly dance and costuming them as you would an adult in bedlah and skirts slit to there. I have occasionally had young girls attend class with their mothers, and it puts a serious constraint on the way I teach the rest of my students. Teaching a child sensuality in dance is the emotional equivalent of putting a young ballet dancer on pointe too soon- you can easily wreck the person, let alone the dancer. Folk dance is a great place for kids to start, and I wish I were capable of teaching it myself.

Chani

Thanks for that link Michelle. There are some great accessories there and the boys outfits look great, too.

kiewiet, You had some very interesting insights. Thanks.

Hi Shanazel, You wrote:

> Teaching a child sensuality in dance is the emotional equivalent of putting a young ballet dancer on pointe too soon

So would you say sensuality is "taught" in a dance class? I wonder how one could "teach" it. I ask because I figured you are shown moves and technical information but that the emotions that you put into the way you dance would come from within.

Chani

kiewiet

Sensuality isn't neccesarily taught but it IS a byproduct of this very beautiful dance form. The hip and body movements are ones which can be very sensual (or sexual depending on how they are delivered) and this can cause issues for kids. They are innocents but are doing movements which are often associated with more mature women. Many women also find it to be an awakening of a more sensual person hidden within themselves and as a result this comes out in their dance.Please be assured that I am not meaning they become vulgar, merely that there is a connection to the femininity they can't express easily in day to day life for whatever reasons. A child may not have this awakening but they learn and copy what they see, thus there is a chance that they will unknowingly create movements beyond their maturity.
My biggest worry is because of remarks I have heard made during performances -if I could have pinpointed the person I would have definitely reported it. Are you willing to place your daughter in the position that some pervert decides she is sexually"ripe"because she does hip circles?or because she does "bellydance" Because unfortunately this is one of the problems associated and why I severely limited my daughters BD experience.
BD is a wonderful dance but if your daughter is talented in other forms of dance(which I am sure she is) it may be wise to let her rather spend more time on those. They will assist her to become strong in her body and teach her skills which will be usefull in BD and she can always do BD with mum at home or take it up later. I have seen some very talented young dancers come from other backgrounds who have really benefitted hugely from the hip hop/modern/ballet or whatever dance they did. The more çonventional forms of dance have also had years of experience in which to learn about the differences in adult to childrens bodies and the teaching reflects this. Another question which arises is, can your teacher spend the time with your daughter to ensure she is doing movements correctly or will she be overlooked? Obviously a teacher has to pay first attention to paying students but in a class of 20 adults, will a child be seen? Childrens classes are usually limited numbers because we have to be more watchfull as they are still growing and injuries and bad habits happen easily.
Having had my daughter dance with me I was very fortunate in my teacher. She saw how my daughter copied (standing behind a curtain whilst waiting for me) and rather than let her do the moves in a way that could cause injury, my teacher allowed her to participate in a limited way. The reality was though that it did affect how classes were taught so I rather let her do classes where I knew what to expect and whether it would be suitable(been dancing there a long while). Looking back, I probably would do the same -dance at home with me, limited classes(private or close too private) and dress up and dance at harem parties. Most kids hit a point anyway where they lose interest because they struggle with the movements due to their body development. Some return to it but most don't as they feel it was not for them. A sad loss.
Gosh, I do blather on. Ill shutup now

Chani

Hi Kiewiet,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply and for shareing your and your daughter's experiences.

I understand what you are saying here. It's natural for children to play act everything they see us doing and it's how the learn and practice for when they are adults. My girls will pretend to breastfeed and will play Mum's & Dads, try on make-up and will even play catwalk modelling with their version of high fashion and the slinky walk in high heels - but of course this is just their play at home. In my mind I hadn't got so far as to consider performances. It is something I and my husband will put a great deal of thought into before she progresses to that point.

I hear you. I suppose the question is how much are we willing to modify our (or our children's) lives to compensate for people who are just wrong. I suppose my view is I am willing to compromise only enough to keep my kids safe but I won't modify further than I see I need to. In this regard I take risks every day.

An example is that I never lock my house up. We don't live in a dangerous area but I live in Sydney and it's a big city and theft is everywhere. My neighbopurs don't just lock up their houses but dead bolt the entire building (for insurance purposes) I leave my back door wide open and all doors and windows unlocked. I take the risk because I want to feel free, I don't want to live like I dont trust people and don't want to live in fear of being robbed.

However, when it comes to my children I cannot automatically take the same level of risk on their behalf and I do for myself. More caution is in order. So my take on belly dancing is that while many mother's wouldn't allow it at all - I am allowing it but I will be heavily regulating and reviewing the situation in light of the potential risks if that makes sense.

She currently takes Jazz Ballet and Hip Hop. The outfits they wear happen to be much more grown up than any belly dancing outfit she would wear - tight lycra leggings and either a bra style top or a midriff corset style top (tank top at the front with cross over lace up at the back. I'm pretty open minded but I find them a bit much. She has no choice but to wear it because it's the school's uniform. Then there are the suggestive hip hop moves and the music. The performances are public(ish). Not at a public venue but anybody can buy a ticket - it's mostly family and friends. It does concern me but she loves it so much and she is so good - so I just do what I will do with BD and supervise and have good conversations with her about it all.


I think so. Our class is only 10 students - the little girls make it up to 12. She is not mucking around in class at all, working hard and not disruptive or I wouldn't have her there. Because of the comments in this thread I will be extra observant as to how much time my daughter is taking up of the teachers and I will also make a point ot talking with my instructor to discuss if she feels it is working with the kids in the class or not.

Harem parties sound fun. Nothing like a girly gathering. What generally happens at them?

Chani

kiewiet

oooh I'm with you about the costuming-it was one of the things we went through with dancing too -why do they think girls have to/want to dress like that? I did find quite a few parents were not happy with costumes though-only after the performances unfortunately. Maybe some of the other parents feel the same way you do!
I agree that parent regulation is the most important thing and I can only share with you some of the things we ran into.
The harem parties are once a term and dancers and their kids(boys up to 12yo allowed but usually they don't want to come anyway) and female friends and family gather for a few hours of conversation, dancing and FOOD. The girls/ladies who have learnt choreographies or want to start performing get a chance to perform before a friendly audience and build up skills and the rest of us just dance and enjoy ourselves. It is really great fun. Many dancers kids dress up even if they don't dance. You are free to dress up or not. See some pics here
http://www.bellydancearabesque.com.a...page/photo_pg5.
html
Maybe they have similar gatherings where you dance? We do have one at the end of the year to which spouses/ partners are invited too. Then they can see what we really get up too

Maria_Aya

Heyyyyyyy I just loved this thread, dont ever think like that for me, i love to communicate with people from all over the world and share our different point of view on various subjects

And read very carefully your messages and liked the philosophy you have on raising your kids

But i've had so many horror dance moments with kids on stage, that I felt like had to declare my point of view. Last summer at the Greek Oriental Competition, the kids category was full of half naked kids, with see-throu turkish panel skirts, and all their bottom out !!! I almost hit a teacher and I had a big fight with a pair of parents, how they accepted their 6 old daughter to appear like this !! (well i'm hot-blooded when it comes to some subjects lol).

Kisses
maria aya

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kiewiet

Maria aya, I certainly know how you feel about kids dressed inappropriately- that is why I started making costumes for kids of friends. I could not bear them wearing those horrible outifts. I found that most girls can be kept very happy by designing to their ideas(color or skirt/pants etc) and adding LOTS of trim without allowing them to be half naked.
No matter how much noise I made this issue, the usual answer was, "where do we get a nice costume?" Or "The teacher said this was appropriate." Yes, there are teachers out here too who think anything is OK as long as the mothers keep paying. It drives me nuts because those teachers are also often the ones sending out performers giving US a bad name. Although I cant help thinking about a teacher who gave the talk about clothing not being overly revealing or too sheer to adult classes and then went on to design the kids costumes out of one layer of very see through chiffon Not even a belt hid the important bits Sometimes people get carried way I think.
I now speak out about my experiences and hope people can take something from it, as I in turn learn from them. I truly believe this is a wonderful art form we practise and it has many helpful benefits but the understanding and knowledge about it has grown over time.

Shanazel

Teaching dance is more than teaching mechanical movement, just as teaching music is more than teaching where to find notes on an instrument and teaching writing is more than instructing people in grammar. A big part of any teacher's job is to teach people how to find and express emotion appropriately, so, yes, expression of sensuality is taught in dance classes. Not everyone is so in tune with him or herself that sensuality flows naturally and gracefully into their dance. Look at the great uproar over Kaya's over the top dancing- many people find it downright pornographic and in need of serious toning down. Look at dancers who can move all the proper muscles and take all the proper steps but who look mechanical because they never learned to put emotion behind what they do. Emotional expression is not a gift given to everyone; most people have to work at it.

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Excellent Thread! My daughter is now 15(today's her birthday) and she and I have been dancing together since she was 9. My teacher's daughters also dance with us at shows and they have their very own troupe and are developing their own choreography. Our experience is dancing wih our daughters is a very positive one but only because we didn't abdicate our responsibilities as parents. As a parent it is my responsibilty to provide a safe, wholesome environment for my child. As such, I'm aware of the predations of unholy people whereas she is not. In the beginning we chose the dances and costuming...nothing with sexual overtones,no navel baring, no bras etc. Their costumes are bright with a lot of colors and flash. But they have been taught the TRUE foundations of the dance, they play zills, and can dance with tahtib. They enjoy the drum solos and the soft lyrical quality of veils.
In terms of costuming, they often wore full circle skirts with harem pants underneath and a full choli top, hip scarves with lots of fluff tucked in them. They looked like girls dancing and not mini-women. But now they are teenagers, and so they are growing up to be women. It is not our intention to keep them frozen in time but guide them toward womanhood. For me this means teaching healthy level of sensuality, respect for her body and valid emotional responses and it's proper place in their lives as women. I'm her mother, it's MY job to guide her.

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Shanazel

Brava, Yasmine! And happy birthday to your daughter.