Weight training for raqs dancers? - Page 6

Aniseteph · 07-08-2008, 10:56 PM

OK I can see the point of weightlifting and specific training programs if you want to be dancing at a level that needs a lot of strength and endurance (eg. lots of teaching or performing), or if you are doing extreme technique. I can see the point of training and working out to fit the required showbiz image if you are looking to get work. I can see that you might just want to do it anyway because you enjoy it.

But specifically towards being a raqs baladi dancer? I find that so bizarre, like it's coming at the whole thing from completely the wrong (Westernised?) angle. IMHO you are far better spending the time and money on music, dance classes, watching performances, and practice practice practice (which will tone up the necessary bits of course

).

Got that of my weedy unhoned chest, carry on...

da Sage · 07-08-2008, 11:25 PM

Hi Mago. Sorry I am so hostile; it's because I just don't think your story rings true. Obviously I cannot prove that one way or another, but that's why I'm so snarky.

On the first page, you started out with very non-trainer-esque language, a request for dancer's workout routines, and an offer to give free workout advice to bellydancers.

Then, you posted this:

"Right now we are doing a combination of gentler exercises <my emphasis> to bring her up to a level where she can handle more intense working out. At this point, we're working with a combination of CrossFit <described by many serious fitness enthusiasts as "a killer workout"> with yoga and pilates <and pilates is not known for being easy, either> (I'm working on yoga certfication at this time) in combination with the resistance training to get her stronger without sacrificing her flexibility."

So, you seem to contradict yourself in the same entry. First you say you're doing gentle workouts, then you describe a hard one. And you get into more of this on the next page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago

Sample Workout - Heavy day (usually 1x per week, maybe more if motivated)

Wife doesn't do this one if she has dance class that evening, this is one she does on non-dance days, although once you have conditioning, it can be done on any day you want to do heavy work.

I call this routine a screamer, cause you'll want to scream in the middle of it, and its over (theoretically) in 35 minutes - five circuits with one minute of rest in between, the reps are as many as you can fit in each one-minute exercise. Transition should be less than 10 secs between exercises. (beginners usually get 3 minutes to recover, then it shortens by 30 seconds each week). The weighted stuff comes first for her so she can 'coast' through the b.w. stuff and rows, but they can go in any order:

1. dumbbell thrusters (start in a squat, dumbbells at shoulder height, then push up from heels and straighten arms, finish on balls of feet, then return dumbells to start and squat down) with appropriate weight (not too heavy, or your arms will noodle before you get to circuit two - she uses 10 lb d-bells)

2. push press (standing with dumbbells at shoulder) extend up to full extension, then back to shoulders. You should have a little push with your legs with this (same weight as thrusters)

3. snatch balance. Use a wide grip, bar starts on back of shoulders with you standing, then you squat while leaving the bar in its place in the air, then lower it and stand back up (get at 10+ lb barbell from the rack).

4. box jumps (use an aerobic step platform at 18", and jump up, extend to a full standing position, then step off)

5. rowing machine (for max calories)

Do as many of each as you can. If you have to take a quick breather, do so. If you slow down, its ok. The object here is to try and maintain continual motion. Just don't quit in the middle of the workout. Keep going, even if you're wheezing like someone with emphysema - much like sustained shimmies - you can't do warp speed shimmies the first time, you keep going and the stamina builds, but you don't build unless you keep trying.

From here, we do a vinyasa (vinyasa emphasizes breath and flow) yoga sun salute (10 minutes):
prayer position
arms out, then up to overhead clap
swan dive to palms down
flatten back while touching floor
left leg back into lunge
right leg back into plank
downward dog
plank
knees chest chin to floor (butt up)
cobra
upward dog
lunge (left leg moves forward)
bring feet together, stand with hands on floor
roll up to stand with hands in overhand clap
prayer position.

thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical)
stretch

Light day (45 minutes, with appropriate rest):

This is more sendentary, with focus on each movement and perfecting the technique. This works muscle groups differently than the heavy workout.

dumbbell side bends (2 sets of 12) with 20 lbs d-bell
plank (2 times at 30 seconds)
back extensions or supermans (2 sets of 12)
triceps extension (2 sets of 12)
swiss ball pushups at hip (2 sets of 12)
wall pushups (2 sets of 12)
squats (2 sets of 12)
standing abduction (2 sets of 12)
bulgarian split leg squats (2 sets of 12)
crunches on swiss ball with ten-second backbend over swiss ball (2 sets of 12 crunches). the swiss ball is here on teh backbend so you don't fall in the middle of the backbend.

Vinyasa Moon Salute:
standing, bend backwards, reaching for wall behind
standing forward bend, lock fingers, stretch arms behind back
lunge left leg back, hands in overhead clap
downward dog
plank
knees/chest/chin (butt up)
cobra
downward dog
lunge left leg forward
standing forward bend, palms to floors
stand up, overhead clap
bend backwards, reaching for wall behind

thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical)
stretch

Your time numbers don't add up for the workouts, either. And then you are super-into the forums, but your wife is (while devotedly attentive, at home and reading each post), not that into the forum and too busy "enjoying the children" to log in. Although she finds time for this punishing workout, and is grateful for your companionship and attention while doing it. And no information on where your wife is "studying" her craft!

When we told you she needed flexibility, did you ask for stretches? No...you just went on to lecture us on how the human body works. And repeat the information that weight training doesn't cause over-muscularity (despite the fact that you claimed to be trying to avoid a too-muscular look in your first post!).

The whole set-up smacks of "the man who wants to arrange bellydance lessons for his wife". But here, you seem to want to set yourself up as a workout resource for bellydancers...frankly, I don't buy it.

I apologize if I'm wrong. But that's where bitchiness comes from. I second the poster who said that your wife should focus less on working out, and concentrate her efforts on dance, music, and cultural studies if she REALLY wants to be a bellydancer.

Shanazel · 07-08-2008, 11:57 PM

Lifting weights bores me out of my mind. I have been known to engage in the activity but it never would occur to me to recommend it to my dance students as being particularly beneficial for dance. They tend to get a fair upper body workout pumping chiffon during veilwork

.

Mago · 07-09-2008, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by da Sage

Hi Mago. Sorry I am so hostile; it's because I just don't think your story rings true. Obviously I cannot prove that one way or another, but that's why I'm so snarky.

On the first page, you started out with very non-trainer-esque language, a request for dancer's workout routines, and an offer to give free workout advice to bellydancers.

Then, you posted this:

"Right now we are doing a combination of gentler exercises <my emphasis> to bring her up to a level where she can handle more intense working out. At this point, we're working with a combination of CrossFit <described by many serious fitness enthusiasts as "a killer workout"> with yoga and pilates <and pilates is not known for being easy, either> (I'm working on yoga certfication at this time) in combination with the resistance training to get her stronger without sacrificing her flexibility."

So, you seem to contradict yourself in the same entry. First you say you're doing gentle workouts, then you describe a hard one. And you get into more of this on the next page:

Your time numbers don't add up for the workouts, either. And then you are super-into the forums, but your wife is (while devotedly attentive, at home and reading each post), not that into the forum and too busy "enjoying the children" to log in. Although she finds time for this punishing workout, and is grateful for your companionship and attention while doing it. And no information on where your wife is "studying" her craft!

When we told you she needed flexibility, did you ask for stretches? No...you just went on to lecture us on how the human body works. And repeat the information that weight training doesn't cause over-muscularity (despite the fact that you claimed to be trying to avoid a too-muscular look in your first post!).

The whole set-up smacks of "the man who wants to arrange bellydance lessons for his wife". But here, you seem to want to set yourself up as a workout resource for bellydancers...frankly, I don't buy it.

I apologize if I'm wrong. But that's where bitchiness comes from. I second the poster who said that your wife should focus less on working out, and concentrate her efforts on dance, music, and cultural studies if she REALLY wants to be a bellydancer.

Wow. You couldn't have been more wrong about me... let me lay it out for you. And, a cautionary note, when you make assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption...

I started with non-trainer language because I was looking to find some info from people who already do the dance, so to speak. I didn't expect to be challenged from the go about every little thing I said. Your expectation of me colored every single thing I said - I offered some insights and general advice - a few people took me up on it, which is fine. I don't expect to get information without sharing any - that's just greedy and uncool, by any count.

I use scaled CrossFit because regular CrossFit just smites even the most athletic. However, if you ever look at CrossFit you'll find that even scaled back workouts (let's face it, i'm not making her do muscle-ups or anything dramatic) and unassisted pilates (no machine) and yoga. my times do work, and yes, I do them with her. If you look, I posted both an easy and a hard workout, in regards to her goals. They don't have to be your idea of easy, just her's.

As for 'this smacks of a man's setup" - wow you really went up the wrong tree. My wife has done belly dancing before I met her, and fell away from it. She finally got serious this summer and wanted a training workout and a dance class she can get into. You could have PM'd me for her school if you really wanted to know, instead of hopping to yet another wrong conclusion.

Which brings me up to another point - time... I can surf the net because right now Im working at the wellness center of the University of the Incarnate Word. While yes, I am a trainer, I just got my cert over the summer. I'm doing workstudy while I do my classes to get my MS in Kinesiology. So, even at work, I have time to do such things like research belly dance, firedancing (another of her interests) and burn time on this forum, which is cool when you have email notifications and only one thread you're subscribed to.

I didn't realize I needed to tell you my wife dances at Little Egypt Dance Co, or that she's learning Egyptian style dance... then again, so far anything I posted has automatically been assumed to be some dumb meathead idiot male chauvinist trying to do I don't know what since I'm not that guy.

Duly noted on the stretching. She does a lot of that, too.

So, you see. You got me wrong on every single bloody thing you assumed about me. So much of that unpleasantness could have been avoided if you had simply asked a question or two about us. I'm cautious about the info I give out about our family - who's not in this day and age, but I would have answered questions.

Now, if you have anything else you're assuming about me, or my situation with my wife, or anything else, please ask. If this situation is any lesson, it should be that assumptions are usually wrong and communication is key.

Yeah, I'm angry you pasted me with some stereotype. I'll get over it. As you said, you don't know me. For all you know, I'm not really a student at UIW, or that I'm not any of these things - but its a shame that your pessimism took something you didn't agree with and built it into this whole thing that never was to begin with.

I'm sorry you didn't bring this up a while back - the nasty little snipes did nothing but ruin what would have been a good experience. And, it solved nothing.

Shanazel · 07-09-2008, 07:03 AM

Welcome to the forum, Mago. You have truely been tossed into the deep end.

Da Sage did offer apologies for any misconceptions as well as an explanation for her snarkiness. Men with Pygmalian complexes are more common than you might think and coming online to discuss how one might whip a large woman into a thin one with a particular percentage of body fat sets off "possible troll" alarms in some of us who don't understand the emphasis on sculpting a person as if she were a stone statue. This is not to say you are a troll or to otherwise cast aspersions on you personally, but when one enters a new community, be it in real life or on-line, first impressions carry a lot of weight, and my own first impression was of someone who was not particularly interested in ME dance except as a facet of what he wanted his significant other to become. After several years on the forum, we have all seen this before, and if some like da Sage question it upfront, you need to be a little understanding and perhaps a bit more generous with explanations than would a person who is interested in the dance for the sake of the dance alone. In a perfect world there would be no need to ever question anyone's motives, but it isn't a perfect world.

adiemus · 07-09-2008, 08:07 AM

IMHO the reason for fitness is to ensure you are capable of the daily activities you undertake. Another may well be to maintain optimum body weight and ROM - again for the daily activities you undertake.
I do not participate in fitness - my fitness level is more than adequate for daily activities, dancing and leisure including diving.
I dance, I maintain enough fitness from that and participating in my sports to be both healthy and maintain my weight and ROM.
I personally don't believe (a) that any additional specific muscle strengthening programme is necessary for recreational MED, although it can be fun and (b) exercising to achieve a particular body shape, whether 'toned' or not, is especially healthy, provided the weight is within the normal range. If a person, and I'm one of them, enjoys dancing, and pursues it enthusiastically, this will probably be quite sufficient.

Any more physical fitness will demand time and energy that might be more adequately spent actually DANCING! Dancing is a whole lot more than merely repeating a bunch of perfectly executed movements, no matter how 'cut' or toned the body is, and there is absolutely NO replacement for dancing with the soul, which I'm afraid, only happens while DANCING, not exercising.

I'm still not sure what your wife wants to be fit *for* - if it's fit for dancing, then dancing is the best way to achieve it.

da Sage · 07-09-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago

Wow. You couldn't have been more wrong about me... let me lay it out for you. And, a cautionary note, when you make assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption...

I started with non-trainer language because I was looking to find some info from people who already do the dance, so to speak. I didn't expect to be challenged from the go about every little thing I said. Your expectation of me colored every single thing I said - I offered some insights and general advice - a few people took me up on it, which is fine. I don't expect to get information without sharing any - that's just greedy and uncool, by any count.

I use scaled CrossFit because regular CrossFit just smites even the most athletic. However, if you ever look at CrossFit you'll find that even scaled back workouts (let's face it, i'm not making her do muscle-ups or anything dramatic) and unassisted pilates (no machine) and yoga. my times do work, and yes, I do them with her. If you look, I posted both an easy and a hard workout, in regards to her goals. They don't have to be your idea of easy, just her's.

As for 'this smacks of a man's setup" - wow you really went up the wrong tree. My wife has done belly dancing before I met her, and fell away from it. She finally got serious this summer and wanted a training workout and a dance class she can get into. You could have PM'd me for her school if you really wanted to know, instead of hopping to yet another wrong conclusion.

Which brings me up to another point - time... I can surf the net because right now Im working at the wellness center of the University ***. While yes, I am a trainer, I just got my cert over the summer. I'm doing workstudy while I do my classes to get my MS in Kinesiology. So, even at work, I have time to do such things like research belly dance, firedancing (another of her interests) and burn time on this forum, which is cool when you have email notifications and only one thread you're subscribed to.

I didn't realize I needed to tell you my wife dances at !!! Co, or that she's learning Egyptian style dance... then again, so far anything I posted has automatically been assumed to be some dumb meathead idiot male chauvinist trying to do I don't know what since I'm not that guy.

Duly noted on the stretching. She does a lot of that, too.

So, you see. You got me wrong on every single bloody thing you assumed about me. So much of that unpleasantness could have been avoided if you had simply asked a question or two about us. I'm cautious about the info I give out about our family - who's not in this day and age, but I would have answered questions.

Now, if you have anything else you're assuming about me, or my situation with my wife, or anything else, please ask. If this situation is any lesson, it should be that assumptions are usually wrong and communication is key.

Yeah, I'm angry you pasted me with some stereotype. I'll get over it. As you said, you don't know me. For all you know, I'm not really a student at ***, or that I'm not any of these things - but its a shame that your pessimism took something you didn't agree with and built it into this whole thing that never was to begin with.

I'm sorry you didn't bring this up a while back - the nasty little snipes did nothing but ruin what would have been a good experience. And, it solved nothing.

I apologize if my suspicions are unjustified. I try not to engage online people I have doubts about in private conversation; it is too easily misquoted and misrepresented.

(I put symbols in instead of words, so you can delete your private info later if you would like).

Actually, what would make me trust you more, is if you pointed out some of the PT forum threads where you already sought this advice from professionals before talking to us (which you mentioned in a previous post). This would make me feel that you were indeed seeking professional advice to help your wife, and not just coming up with an excuse to talk to bellydancers (or construct an elaborate Pygmalion fantasy). This can be public or private communicated, and while I might join to read the posts, I would not respond to that thread, or bother you in any way on those forums.

No pressure - but if I saw such posts, it would make me much more likely to believe you.

I also hope your wife is as into the workouts as you are. I'm concerned that if she is too tired/busy to dance well and often, the workout plan will take away from her development as a dancer, not add to it. Specifically, 30 minutes of dancing a day, is more valuable to becoming a dancer than 30 minutes of exercise (unless she has very low fitness/strength to begin with, and needs exercise to overcome physical shortcomings).

Mago · 07-09-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Welcome to the forum, Mago. You have truely been tossed into the deep end.

Da Sage did offer apologies for any misconceptions as well as an explanation for her snarkiness. Men with Pygmalian complexes are more common than you might think and coming online to discuss how one might whip a large woman into a thin one with a particular percentage of body fat sets off "possible troll" alarms in some of us who don't understand the emphasis on sculpting a person as if she were a stone statue. This is not to say you are a troll or to otherwise cast aspersions on you personally, but when one enters a new community, be it in real life or on-line, first impressions carry a lot of weight, and my own first impression was of someone who was not particularly interested in ME dance except as a facet of what he wanted his significant other to become. After several years on the forum, we have all seen this before, and if some like da Sage question it upfront, you need to be a little understanding and perhaps a bit more generous with explanations than would a person who is interested in the dance for the sake of the dance alone. In a perfect world there would be no need to ever question anyone's motives, but it isn't a perfect world.

I can understand the point, but I was angry, and I feel justifiably so. I'll be honest, when I first got here, I really wasn't that interested in ME dance. That changed, mainly in reading up on male dancers and watching my wife dance and the sheer joy of her face. I even started taking classes, just because I think its really cool. Seeing Tarik and Zorba's stuff on the net made me feel pretty ok, too.

But that's something else - I still came here pretty open. I can't help others reading negative things into something that was not negative, or assuming the worst regardless of what I have said or acted like. If I were thinner-skinned, I would have posted nastiness about the rudeness of the responses, and blown y'all off without a second thought. The thought was _very_ appealing.

Yeah, I got the sharp end of the conversation, and I can deal with it. The issue was not whether I was questioned,because I expected it. I get people asking for their wives at the gym here at UIW all the time about how to ge their women in shape. I would have gotten it, but it was all the little bits of wasp stings that came up instead of intelligent conversation. Trolls don't make more than a token effort to conform, and I would have been as clear and honest as I could. If this had been a straight up "Dude, what's up with this? Are you trying to make your wife/SO/steady girl into something she's not?" straight out, I would have been straightforward with anyone who asked. If anything, I've been straight in addressing everything that's been said, like when Yasmine pointed out some errors in my understanding of glucose uptake and fat storage, and I have publicly bowed to those with more info that I - but in no place did I catch anyone asking me if I was doing this out of my desire, or hers.

So, let me make this clear, because in all honesty, I'd like to enjoy the other parts of this forum. If I have offended you or anyone else for getting hot, I am sorry. I am unaccustomed to having my motives assigned to the lowest common denominator - I usually try to think as an enlightened human without prejudice, and treat others as if they were the same. I felt attacked and belittled and responded from there, so I offer apologies if I was out of line.

I will not apologize, though, for being offended that so much was assumed from me without justification. It was wrong and unfair to get judged so preemptively. A PM or a direct question, while uncomfortable, would have been preferable to 'bitchiness'. Explanations to why the bitchiness was there are great, but the basic underlying concept of 'we thought it was this way, and we'd seen it before, so...' is not cool, gender profiling at worst.

da Sage - you and I are cool, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not gonna hold a grudge. Are we cool from your end? I'd like to chalk this up as a bad moment of miscommunication and try again. I've been told that I am a fairly fun person to talk to - I'd like to try and make amends for the bad image you have of me and see if we can be nice and civil to each other.

I appreciate the explanation, Shanazel. Doesn't make it feel better, but I can understand the way this wound up looking.

If anyone else has any presumptions to my aims here, please PM me and I will explain myself. I would like to be a contributing member of this forum, still, but if you have a question of me, please ask.

And the 'assumption makes an ass of you, and umption' is a line I love from Samuel L. Jackson in 'The Long Kiss Goodnight.' It was an attempt at humor. I don't think it flew.

Cheers.

Mago

da Sage · 07-09-2008, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mago

...

I will not apologize, though, for being offended that so much was assumed from me without justification. It was wrong and unfair to get judged so preemptively. A PM or a direct question, while uncomfortable, would have been preferable to 'bitchiness'. Explanations to why the bitchiness was there are great, but the basic underlying concept of 'we thought it was this way, and we'd seen it before, so...' is not cool, gender profiling at worst.

da Sage - you and I are cool, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not gonna hold a grudge. Are we cool from your end? I'd like to chalk this up as a bad moment of miscommunication and try again. I've been told that I am a fairly fun person to talk to - I'd like to try and make amends for the bad image you have of me and see if we can be nice and civil to each other.

.....

If anyone else has any presumptions to my aims here, please PM me and I will explain myself. I would like to be a contributing member of this forum, still, but if you have a question of me, please ask.

.....

Cheers.

Mago

Hey, you have a right to be offended, just as I have a right to doubt. I will probably continue to doubt until/unless I see the posts in other (non-BD) forums that you referenced, saying that you found no info there, and came here later. As I've said, you can PM them to me, if you don't like being doubted. I will not be active in any other fitness forums than the two I am already active in (where I haven't seen your posts).

My apologies for not stating my skepticism straight out. But my objections to your "women are as strong as/stronger than men" theory, and the constant harping on "You won't bulk up! Don't worry!" were consistent with my usual take/response on those subjects. And incidentally the people in my family DO bulk up, such that we cannot wear standard-fitting clothing because of our muscle mass when we are in shape - but most people don't have that problem, and I prefer being healthy and strong, to weak and easily dressable.

And I won't be needling you again now that I've stated my doubts. I might post my honest response to any of your posts on this forum, but I'll try to keep my "bitchiness" in check, and treat you with care in the future.

Mago · 07-09-2008, 05:25 PM

Fair enough, da Sage. I appreciate the honesty. I hope that you do lay your doubts to rest sooner or later. I try to be an alright kinda guy.

Mago

07-08-2008, 11:57 PM	#53 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,687	Lifting weights bores me out of my mind. I have been known to engage in the activity but it never would occur to me to recommend it to my dance students as being particularly beneficial for dance. They tend to get a fair upper body workout pumping chiffon during veilwork.

07-09-2008, 08:07 AM	#56 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	IMHO the reason for fitness is to ensure you are capable of the daily activities you undertake. Another may well be to maintain optimum body weight and ROM - again for the daily activities you undertake. I do not participate in fitness - my fitness level is more than adequate for daily activities, dancing and leisure including diving. I dance, I maintain enough fitness from that and participating in my sports to be both healthy and maintain my weight and ROM. I personally don't believe (a) that any additional specific muscle strengthening programme is necessary for recreational MED, although it can be fun and (b) exercising to achieve a particular body shape, whether 'toned' or not, is especially healthy, provided the weight is within the normal range. If a person, and I'm one of them, enjoys dancing, and pursues it enthusiastically, this will probably be quite sufficient. Any more physical fitness will demand time and energy that might be more adequately spent actually DANCING! Dancing is a whole lot more than merely repeating a bunch of perfectly executed movements, no matter how 'cut' or toned the body is, and there is absolutely NO replacement for dancing with the soul, which I'm afraid, only happens while DANCING, not exercising. I'm still not sure what your wife wants to be fit for - if it's fit for dancing, then dancing is the best way to achieve it. __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

07-09-2008, 05:25 PM	#60 (permalink)
Mago Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Anto, baby! Posts: 25	Fair enough, da Sage. I appreciate the honesty. I hope that you do lay your doubts to rest sooner or later. I try to be an alright kinda guy. Mago __________________ Better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool.

07-08-2008, 10:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,714	OK I can see the point of weightlifting and specific training programs if you want to be dancing at a level that needs a lot of strength and endurance (eg. lots of teaching or performing), or if you are doing extreme technique. I can see the point of training and working out to fit the required showbiz image if you are looking to get work. I can see that you might just want to do it anyway because you enjoy it. But specifically towards being a raqs baladi dancer? I find that so bizarre, like it's coming at the whole thing from completely the wrong (Westernised?) angle. IMHO you are far better spending the time and money on music, dance classes, watching performances, and practice practice practice (which will tone up the necessary bits of course ). Got that of my weedy unhoned chest, carry on...

07-09-2008, 07:03 AM	#55 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,687	Welcome to the forum, Mago. You have truely been tossed into the deep end. Da Sage did offer apologies for any misconceptions as well as an explanation for her snarkiness. Men with Pygmalian complexes are more common than you might think and coming online to discuss how one might whip a large woman into a thin one with a particular percentage of body fat sets off "possible troll" alarms in some of us who don't understand the emphasis on sculpting a person as if she were a stone statue. This is not to say you are a troll or to otherwise cast aspersions on you personally, but when one enters a new community, be it in real life or on-line, first impressions carry a lot of weight, and my own first impression was of someone who was not particularly interested in ME dance except as a facet of what he wanted his significant other to become. After several years on the forum, we have all seen this before, and if some like da Sage question it upfront, you need to be a little understanding and perhaps a bit more generous with explanations than would a person who is interested in the dance for the sake of the dance alone. In a perfect world there would be no need to ever question anyone's motives, but it isn't a perfect world.