Weight training for raqs dancers? - Page 2

adiemus · 07-01-2008, 08:59 AM

In my experience within pain management and rehabilitation, and my (limited) experience in MED in the past just-over-a-year, can I say that weights are not probably the best way to lose weight anyway? In terms of training for health and to improve ability to dance, perhaps some more light and sustained cardio eg walking, cycling, swimming, and then practicing isolation drills will give more in terms of control and precision in movements than any other sort of training routine.
You're right in saying that no specific exercises will 'spot tone' any area, in the same way that you can't 'spot lose weight'.
I'd ask what her goals are - to be generally fitter and leaner? in which case, as I say, general cardio + bellydance is probably sufficient.
If it's to become more precise and controlled in her dancing - drills seem to be the way.
If she enjoys weights - she'll probably do them. If she doesn't, she won't.
Research in pain management suggests that unless the person enjoys the fitness regime he or she won't do it. And if you don't do it, you won't get any results!

jenc · 07-01-2008, 09:00 AM

Why doesn't dhe post???

adiemus · 07-01-2008, 09:05 AM

good point!

Samira bint Aya · 07-01-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

Research in pain management suggests that unless the person enjoys the fitness regime he or she won't do it. And if you don't do it, you won't get any results!

You are so right!
Going to aerobics used to be my favorite activity. But since my old trainer stopped working, I have yet to find a good new one, who can make the program interesting.

Now, going to the gym is such a chore… I skip it half the time…

Eve · 07-01-2008, 01:21 PM

I'm overweight and recently started back the gym. I used to be very active, lifted heavy etc. Right now I'm doing pyramid sets, compound moves hitting a major body part, followed by an isolation move but less sets as it's already pre-fatigued from the compound move, back with biceps, chest & tri's, legs followed by abs. Pretty standard as I'm getting back in to things.
I'm fitting them in to my lunch hour so rest is kept down 20-30 seconds and off again. I'm sticking with this for approx a month then changing it. I don't have much problem in adding bulk, it's shedding it that's my problem.

As adiemus has said, what are her goals?

As a P.T what programme would you design for someone looking to tone up? Which is pretty much what you're asking (as I read it).Is she looking for muscular definition or not? What kind of workouts does she enjoy? If she hates it she's not likely to stick with it.

She can get a good workout with the dance alone if you drill a move for long enough, ask anyone who does a lot of veil work how it targets the arms, shoulders/back

Core & back go hand in hand. camels/pops
Calves - for when walking on toes
Squats/lunges - shimmies

Ankebuzz · 07-01-2008, 01:33 PM

Currently I am doing resistance training on each major muscle group on the machines at gym twice a week. The other days I run. I've been pondering a fitness class to incorporate some of the co-ordination you need as a dancer into my exercise sessions. I say, just get started with a general goal, let her refine it as she decides what works for her

Mago · 07-01-2008, 03:18 PM

Good morning again

Let me see if i can hit everyone. And just to let you know, I'm happy dropping some general advice on health issues.

Ok, so let me hit some of the high points...

lean muscle burns more calories overall. this is why anything that adds lean muscle, like resistance training, helps reduce overall weight. Also, the research into exercise shows that while cardio burns more cals initially, weight training gives a longer benefit by increasing lean muscle burn over the whole day. In other words, you can burn 300 in a 30 minute cardio session and your body recovers, or you can burn 250 in a 30-minute weight session and then get another 200-300 burn over the course of the day additional to your basal metabolic rate. If you mix the two, then you get a high immediate expenditure and a longer cal burn from the weight training - best of both worlds.

Research shows that light weights that don't tax the muscles do little overall than add some punch to cardio. don't get me wrong, a burned cal is a burned cal, but muscles are like teens, they do the minimum to get by and thats it... so if you are lifting, you should be taxing about 65-75% of your max strength to keep the muscle strong and maximize the metabolic benefits.

Any weight-loss program has two basic components - diet and exercise. For example - if I work out like a dog for three hours and eat nothing but cheeseburgers and fries - i'll feel like crap, get sick, and hate working out. The cleaner you eat, the cleaner you feel, the better the workout. Lean protein, lots of veggies, skip the simple carbs like bread, corn, and potatoes, as they convert to sugar too fast and spike your insulin, which leads to fat deposit, not burning.

Eve, if I were your trainer, i would have you doing basically what you are doing now, but in supersets to push the cardio. Remember to get at least a half-hour of cardio 3x weekly to boost the calorie burn.

I'll post one of my wife's heavy work days in a bit, and a light workout.

Her goals are pretty clear. She's a hippy girl, so she doesn't have to worry about being a narrow ass afterwards, but her hips and shoulders are not proportionate. So, we're doing some fairly heavy upper body to build a little pec (to help firm and emphasize the bust), lats and delts to broaden the back a bit, and some shoulder and trap stuff to help put some mass there so her body hits the hourglass shape more than pear shape.

Her internal image is Bettie Page, but a little more athletic. I think its a definitely attainable goal.

Eve · 07-01-2008, 04:09 PM

Cheers Mago - we'll see how long I last!

And I'm all for lifting heavy, I see no point in swinging weights no heavier than a baked bean can

& I'd be happy with an athletic version of Betty Page.

I wonder if you can add something to an article I was reading, essentially it was saying what wonderful fat magnets women are

& the idea of burning calories all day after a weight workout is based on men whereas women have elevated calorie burn for about an hour after a workout?

Mago · 07-01-2008, 04:10 PM

Sample Workout - Heavy day (usually 1x per week, maybe more if motivated)

Wife doesn't do this one if she has dance class that evening, this is one she does on non-dance days, although once you have conditioning, it can be done on any day you want to do heavy work.

I call this routine a screamer, cause you'll want to scream in the middle of it, and its over (theoretically) in 35 minutes - five circuits with one minute of rest in between, the reps are as many as you can fit in each one-minute exercise. Transition should be less than 10 secs between exercises. (beginners usually get 3 minutes to recover, then it shortens by 30 seconds each week). The weighted stuff comes first for her so she can 'coast' through the b.w. stuff and rows, but they can go in any order:

1. dumbbell thrusters (start in a squat, dumbbells at shoulder height, then push up from heels and straighten arms, finish on balls of feet, then return dumbells to start and squat down) with appropriate weight (not too heavy, or your arms will noodle before you get to circuit two - she uses 10 lb d-bells)

2. push press (standing with dumbbells at shoulder) extend up to full extension, then back to shoulders. You should have a little push with your legs with this (same weight as thrusters)

3. snatch balance. Use a wide grip, bar starts on back of shoulders with you standing, then you squat while leaving the bar in its place in the air, then lower it and stand back up (get at 10+ lb barbell from the rack).

4. box jumps (use an aerobic step platform at 18", and jump up, extend to a full standing position, then step off)

5. rowing machine (for max calories)

Do as many of each as you can. If you have to take a quick breather, do so. If you slow down, its ok. The object here is to try and maintain continual motion. Just don't quit in the middle of the workout. Keep going, even if you're wheezing like someone with emphysema - much like sustained shimmies - you can't do warp speed shimmies the first time, you keep going and the stamina builds, but you don't build unless you keep trying.

From here, we do a vinyasa (vinyasa emphasizes breath and flow) yoga sun salute (10 minutes):
prayer position
arms out, then up to overhead clap
swan dive to palms down
flatten back while touching floor
left leg back into lunge
right leg back into plank
downward dog
plank
knees chest chin to floor (butt up)
cobra
upward dog
lunge (left leg moves forward)
bring feet together, stand with hands on floor
roll up to stand with hands in overhand clap
prayer position.

thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical)
stretch

Light day (45 minutes, with appropriate rest):

This is more sendentary, with focus on each movement and perfecting the technique. This works muscle groups differently than the heavy workout.

dumbbell side bends (2 sets of 12) with 20 lbs d-bell
plank (2 times at 30 seconds)
back extensions or supermans (2 sets of 12)
triceps extension (2 sets of 12)
swiss ball pushups at hip (2 sets of 12)
wall pushups (2 sets of 12)
squats (2 sets of 12)
standing abduction (2 sets of 12)
bulgarian split leg squats (2 sets of 12)
crunches on swiss ball with ten-second backbend over swiss ball (2 sets of 12 crunches). the swiss ball is here on teh backbend so you don't fall in the middle of the backbend.

Vinyasa Moon Salute:
standing, bend backwards, reaching for wall behind
standing forward bend, lock fingers, stretch arms behind back
lunge left leg back, hands in overhead clap
downward dog
plank
knees/chest/chin (butt up)
cobra
downward dog
lunge left leg forward
standing forward bend, palms to floors
stand up, overhead clap
bend backwards, reaching for wall behind

thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical)
stretch

Mago · 07-01-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

Cheers Mago - we'll see how long I last!

And I'm all for lifting heavy, I see no point in swinging weights no heavier than a baked bean can

& I'd be happy with an athletic version of Betty Page.

I wonder if you can add something to an article I was reading, essentially it was saying what wonderful fat magnets women are

& the idea of burning calories all day after a weight workout is based on men whereas women have elevated calorie burn for about an hour after a workout?

I've heard this, but mainly this is the natural response of the human female body being a little more stubborn in terms of fat retention due to possible pregnancy and the need for reserves during pregnancy.

The elevated post-workout burn is proportionately the same as a male, and eating a lower-carb diet will also contribute to a longer, more elevated burn because the exercise burns off glycogen, which is available glucose. When you run out, and none is readily available in your diet, your liver release glucogon to revert fat into usable reserves. Skipping breads, corn, and potatoes will make that conversion from food to glucose longer, so your body burns more fat and cals converting fat to usable stores. Eat lots of greens and veggies, they will give you the carbs your body needs, and it takes longer to break it down into usable glucose. So, a little protein and a lot of greens.

Women also have a slightly more efficient means of converting carb to glucose, too. Biology and preserving the childbearing facilities.

Most of the lesser burn for woen comes from a psychological resistance to a more strenuous resistance workout. I had one woman who was a nurse and could manhandle a patient out of bed, into a chair, and back, tell me she couldn't lift heavy because women are delicate (ahem) and not as strong as men (ahem crap ahem cough cough)

Structurally speaking, women are pound for pound stronger than guys. women as big as guys can lift more, push harder, and have more tolerance for pain than us wussy guys. Kim Lyons, one of the trainers on The Biggest Loser, is as big as Bob Harper, and she has better strength and endurance.

Women get the muscle strength, but not the mass of a guy lifting. So, why not, especially for the overall health benefits?

Go figure.

07-01-2008, 08:59 AM	#11 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 969	In my experience within pain management and rehabilitation, and my (limited) experience in MED in the past just-over-a-year, can I say that weights are not probably the best way to lose weight anyway? In terms of training for health and to improve ability to dance, perhaps some more light and sustained cardio eg walking, cycling, swimming, and then practicing isolation drills will give more in terms of control and precision in movements than any other sort of training routine. You're right in saying that no specific exercises will 'spot tone' any area, in the same way that you can't 'spot lose weight'. I'd ask what her goals are - to be generally fitter and leaner? in which case, as I say, general cardio + bellydance is probably sufficient. If it's to become more precise and controlled in her dancing - drills seem to be the way. If she enjoys weights - she'll probably do them. If she doesn't, she won't. Research in pain management suggests that unless the person enjoys the fitness regime he or she won't do it. And if you don't do it, you won't get any results! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

07-01-2008, 09:05 AM	#13 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 969	good point! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

07-01-2008, 01:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
Ankebuzz Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: I live in Johannesburg in South Africa Posts: 41	Currently I am doing resistance training on each major muscle group on the machines at gym twice a week. The other days I run. I've been pondering a fitness class to incorporate some of the co-ordination you need as a dancer into my exercise sessions. I say, just get started with a general goal, let her refine it as she decides what works for her __________________ Ankebuzzzzzzzzzz

07-01-2008, 04:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mago Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Anto, baby! Posts: 25	A heavy day, a light day. Sample Workout - Heavy day (usually 1x per week, maybe more if motivated) Wife doesn't do this one if she has dance class that evening, this is one she does on non-dance days, although once you have conditioning, it can be done on any day you want to do heavy work. I call this routine a screamer, cause you'll want to scream in the middle of it, and its over (theoretically) in 35 minutes - five circuits with one minute of rest in between, the reps are as many as you can fit in each one-minute exercise. Transition should be less than 10 secs between exercises. (beginners usually get 3 minutes to recover, then it shortens by 30 seconds each week). The weighted stuff comes first for her so she can 'coast' through the b.w. stuff and rows, but they can go in any order: 1. dumbbell thrusters (start in a squat, dumbbells at shoulder height, then push up from heels and straighten arms, finish on balls of feet, then return dumbells to start and squat down) with appropriate weight (not too heavy, or your arms will noodle before you get to circuit two - she uses 10 lb d-bells) 2. push press (standing with dumbbells at shoulder) extend up to full extension, then back to shoulders. You should have a little push with your legs with this (same weight as thrusters) 3. snatch balance. Use a wide grip, bar starts on back of shoulders with you standing, then you squat while leaving the bar in its place in the air, then lower it and stand back up (get at 10+ lb barbell from the rack). 4. box jumps (use an aerobic step platform at 18", and jump up, extend to a full standing position, then step off) 5. rowing machine (for max calories) Do as many of each as you can. If you have to take a quick breather, do so. If you slow down, its ok. The object here is to try and maintain continual motion. Just don't quit in the middle of the workout. Keep going, even if you're wheezing like someone with emphysema - much like sustained shimmies - you can't do warp speed shimmies the first time, you keep going and the stamina builds, but you don't build unless you keep trying. From here, we do a vinyasa (vinyasa emphasizes breath and flow) yoga sun salute (10 minutes): prayer position arms out, then up to overhead clap swan dive to palms down flatten back while touching floor left leg back into lunge right leg back into plank downward dog plank knees chest chin to floor (butt up) cobra upward dog lunge (left leg moves forward) bring feet together, stand with hands on floor roll up to stand with hands in overhand clap prayer position. thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical) stretch Light day (45 minutes, with appropriate rest): This is more sendentary, with focus on each movement and perfecting the technique. This works muscle groups differently than the heavy workout. dumbbell side bends (2 sets of 12) with 20 lbs d-bell plank (2 times at 30 seconds) back extensions or supermans (2 sets of 12) triceps extension (2 sets of 12) swiss ball pushups at hip (2 sets of 12) wall pushups (2 sets of 12) squats (2 sets of 12) standing abduction (2 sets of 12) bulgarian split leg squats (2 sets of 12) crunches on swiss ball with ten-second backbend over swiss ball (2 sets of 12 crunches). the swiss ball is here on teh backbend so you don't fall in the middle of the backbend. Vinyasa Moon Salute: standing, bend backwards, reaching for wall behind standing forward bend, lock fingers, stretch arms behind back lunge left leg back, hands in overhead clap downward dog plank knees/chest/chin (butt up) cobra downward dog lunge left leg forward standing forward bend, palms to floors stand up, overhead clap bend backwards, reaching for wall behind thirty minutes of cardio (elliptical) stretch

07-01-2008, 09:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
jenc Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 680	Why doesn't dhe post???

07-01-2008, 01:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Eve Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 131	I'm overweight and recently started back the gym. I used to be very active, lifted heavy etc. Right now I'm doing pyramid sets, compound moves hitting a major body part, followed by an isolation move but less sets as it's already pre-fatigued from the compound move, back with biceps, chest & tri's, legs followed by abs. Pretty standard as I'm getting back in to things. I'm fitting them in to my lunch hour so rest is kept down 20-30 seconds and off again. I'm sticking with this for approx a month then changing it. I don't have much problem in adding bulk, it's shedding it that's my problem. As adiemus has said, what are her goals? As a P.T what programme would you design for someone looking to tone up? Which is pretty much what you're asking (as I read it).Is she looking for muscular definition or not? What kind of workouts does she enjoy? If she hates it she's not likely to stick with it. She can get a good workout with the dance alone if you drill a move for long enough, ask anyone who does a lot of veil work how it targets the arms, shoulders/back Core & back go hand in hand. camels/pops Calves - for when walking on toes Squats/lunges - shimmies

07-01-2008, 03:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
Mago Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Anto, baby! Posts: 25	Good morning again Let me see if i can hit everyone. And just to let you know, I'm happy dropping some general advice on health issues. Ok, so let me hit some of the high points... lean muscle burns more calories overall. this is why anything that adds lean muscle, like resistance training, helps reduce overall weight. Also, the research into exercise shows that while cardio burns more cals initially, weight training gives a longer benefit by increasing lean muscle burn over the whole day. In other words, you can burn 300 in a 30 minute cardio session and your body recovers, or you can burn 250 in a 30-minute weight session and then get another 200-300 burn over the course of the day additional to your basal metabolic rate. If you mix the two, then you get a high immediate expenditure and a longer cal burn from the weight training - best of both worlds. Research shows that light weights that don't tax the muscles do little overall than add some punch to cardio. don't get me wrong, a burned cal is a burned cal, but muscles are like teens, they do the minimum to get by and thats it... so if you are lifting, you should be taxing about 65-75% of your max strength to keep the muscle strong and maximize the metabolic benefits. Any weight-loss program has two basic components - diet and exercise. For example - if I work out like a dog for three hours and eat nothing but cheeseburgers and fries - i'll feel like crap, get sick, and hate working out. The cleaner you eat, the cleaner you feel, the better the workout. Lean protein, lots of veggies, skip the simple carbs like bread, corn, and potatoes, as they convert to sugar too fast and spike your insulin, which leads to fat deposit, not burning. Eve, if I were your trainer, i would have you doing basically what you are doing now, but in supersets to push the cardio. Remember to get at least a half-hour of cardio 3x weekly to boost the calorie burn. I'll post one of my wife's heavy work days in a bit, and a light workout. Her goals are pretty clear. She's a hippy girl, so she doesn't have to worry about being a narrow ass afterwards, but her hips and shoulders are not proportionate. So, we're doing some fairly heavy upper body to build a little pec (to help firm and emphasize the bust), lats and delts to broaden the back a bit, and some shoulder and trap stuff to help put some mass there so her body hits the hourglass shape more than pear shape. Her internal image is Bettie Page, but a little more athletic. I think its a definitely attainable goal.

07-01-2008, 04:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
Eve Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 131	Cheers Mago - we'll see how long I last! And I'm all for lifting heavy, I see no point in swinging weights no heavier than a baked bean can & I'd be happy with an athletic version of Betty Page. I wonder if you can add something to an article I was reading, essentially it was saying what wonderful fat magnets women are & the idea of burning calories all day after a weight workout is based on men whereas women have elevated calorie burn for about an hour after a workout?